Curse

CagedinSanity · Apr 17, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.

Tyla · Apr 17, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.

Explain how it isn't a gimmick for a cookie.

Taisayacho · Apr 17, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

just because expertise works well doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It's not like other professions don't use their primary attributes with other proffessions' damage dealing capabilites.
example: fast casting nuker.

Randvek · Apr 17, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taisayacho

just because expertise works well doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It's not like other professions don't use their primary attributes with other proffessions' damage dealing capabilites.
example: fast casting nuker.

Yes, but a fast-casting nuker doesn't completely outshine a regular nuker, like R/x outshines x. It's a false analogy.

stale · Apr 17, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

Yes, but a fast-casting nuker doesn't completely outshine a regular nuker, like R/x outshines x. It's a false analogy.

see, all the whining on this thread seems to come down to the thought that a r/x can do the job better than x.

outside the touch ranger, this really doesn't seem to be true. even the R/D isn't all that amazing a build, it's just using the expertise perk thoughtfully.

but, let's go through the possibilities, shall we?

R/Mo - if you're using the /mo for anything but mending touch or a res, you're just goofing off - can't be a serious healer as a R/Mo.

R/Me - for condition spreading, a la epidemic - not going to see a whole lot of domination or illusion based rangers.

R/W - bunny thumper, anyone? again, not a serious threat, and certainly no more powerful than a hammer warrior....

R/N - the infamous touch ranger - admittedly, a better touch approach than using the necro for touch, but not overpowered at all.

R/E - barrage/conjure, anyone? not going to see a whole lot of air spikes or AoE nukage out of a R/E.

R/Rit - ok, this will either be barrage/splinter, or a spirit spammer - either way, it's not all that powerful. rit can spam spirits better, and splinter weapon has been nerfed to cope with the AoE havoc from the splinter barrage.

R/A - seriously, a joke. can't think of any combo you can manage this way that's better than an assassin primary...

R/P - packhunter, or critical bowsman. either way, not exactly overpowered....

R/D - the one that, next to touchers, seems to raise the most ire. but seriously, the e-management from expertise isn't all that much better (i'd say no better, only different) from what you can manage with a derv. escape makes the build, and a quick change to make it end on attack would deal with that.

so, out of 9 possible secondaries, the only two that can be considered abusive are the R/N and the R/D - either of which is easily dealt with. not sure, based on that, where all the whining about expertise came from, other than the fact that the other primary skill lines kind of suck. well, other than soul reaping, divine favour, leadership, fast casting, energy storage, spawning power, crit stike...

ok, so, compared to mysticism and strength, expertise might be overpowered. maybe, just maybe, we need to balance the other skill lines? expertise looks like it's just fine.....

Pyro maniac · Apr 17, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.

that is just sad

Randvek · Apr 17, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by stale

ok, so, compared to mysticism and strength, expertise might be overpowered. maybe, just maybe, we need to balance the other skill lines? expertise looks like it's just fine.....

Your last statement shows why you're on the wrong side of the issue. The argument isn't "zomg, Expertise is overpowered!" The argument is energy primary skills (Expertise chief among them) blow out non-energy ones, in terms of balance. If you consider expertise in a vacuum, yeah, it doesn't look so bad, but if you try to tell me that it is on par with Critical Strikes or Strength, you're just fooling yourself.

Nerf Expertise or buff Strength et. al. I don't really care which.

legion_rat · Apr 17, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I lol'd at the "Rangers in PvP with a bow are not very effective they don't do alot of damage"...

[crippling shot][distracting shot]

you missed the spreading conditions part. Yes they do help with the kill. Cripple is very bad for you but its only what starts your death. The war, derv, sins are what do the main damage. Rangers just make it easier for them. I will say that rangers are one of the best classes in game. easiest I think to get survivor with, due to the hardiness. But, they do not do more damage then the close range hitters or nukers. Rangers are about subtle deaths.

~the rat~

X89 · Apr 17, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Ok so I think I read the op like a week ago, and here is my over all feeling toward expertise. It's fine leave it alone. Why you ask, simple. When a ranger is set into any other form then straight up spread poison, cripple, interrupts, and splits they become utter crap. Look at any gimmick build you posted, all of those are easy to fight against in any pvp format. If anything look at those builds then think to yourself, "Hmm maybe We should look at the skills, not the profession and its main attribute." The game has been out for almost 3yrs, do we really want another soul reaping repeat a year ago?

Tyla · Apr 17, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion_rat

you missed the spreading conditions part. Yes they do help with the kill. Cripple is very bad for you but its only what starts your death. The war, derv, sins are what do the main damage. Rangers just make it easier for them. I will say that rangers are one of the best classes in game. easiest I think to get survivor with, due to the hardiness. But, they do not do more damage then the close range hitters or nukers. Rangers are about subtle deaths.

~the rat~

Then where did this "Bow rangers in PvP aren't effective" thing come from?

Sir Pandra Pierva · Apr 17, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

yeesh this topic is still open....

but any of the R/x can not outshine x when x is ran right.
R/A dont do alot of dmg and mostly just run around
R/N ya we all know this one
R/D fun to run but all in all without escape an as hell to kill build and it doesn't put alot of dmg like a Dervish can. D/W will own a R/D escape scythe in the face.
R/Rt the only build that i really think out shines the x for the one fact of ranger stance blocking and oath shot make it a bitch to take down and its party wide support for cheap is good.

i think i kinda copied a post before me but thats what I see on the expertiese. this is run by people who cant do anything without all their skills costing 2 energy so they can be spam happy and use the best blocking stances in the game to survive and try to outlast any of their oppenents.
my fav example is of a A/D running shatter assault and a R/A running shattering as well.
the A/D SA sin will always own the crap out of these rangers. Plus mostly they just use Escape as their elite to run away after they are the last person alive in the team and just waste 50 min thinking they are funny. And no one on the team can leave after that cause of dishonorable hex...

i hate griefer rangers.

thats what we should be talking about nerfing.

ShadowsRequiem · Apr 17, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Then where did this "Bow rangers in PvP aren't effective" thing come from?

People like to flip/flop

Rangers should stay as they are. What other class can you have so much fun with :F You'll never run out of builds lol..

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 18, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

leave expertise alone its what makes rangers fun

man i wanted cookies ><

Itokaru · Apr 18, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

The alternative may involve ruining it for good players. Not worth it. And low end PvP is casual anyways. At that level, its just a game.

Try telling that to the "pr0 3l1t3 p14y3rs" in RA.

They just flame anyone who has a build that they don't like, and then flame anyone that beats them, and then they flame anyone that they beat, and then they flame random people in local chat. Then you tell them to shut up and they PM you with flames, then go on Do Not Disturb when you hurt their feelings.

I think to them, RA is a lot more than casual PvP.

CagedinSanity · Apr 22, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

that is just sad

It does fine in PvE. In PvP, I do switch to the standard bow stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Explain how it isn't a gimmick for a cookie.

A gimmick, by definition, is something made to appeal to a group and increase whatever of said group. Assassins to me are about the only gimmick class, as they cater to people who like being "ninjas" (not everyone mind you).

My ranger with an axe does not make her a gimmick, it just makes me, as an original player, looking for something different in my Gw experience.
My ritualist also uses a bow.
I'm still trying to find a melee build for my elementalist.

Not a gimmick. It's just different.

Orange Milk · Apr 22, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I have a couple of Solo Farm areas with a R/W Axe aswell, it's no "gimmick" it's what gets the job done. I've been useing a sword alot more than Axe as of late.

Tray an Water Ele with an Axe, Use Conjure Frost and a Cold Damage Axe and add in some of the Armor Skills from the Water line to get you Ele up to the Armor Level of a Melee. With 70+ Energy and 4 pips of regen you can spam Axe Attacks all day, you don't even need to use Adrenial Attacks. I useed to run one in RA just to screw off sometimes.

Uh oh, guess we better call for a nerf of Energy Storage now cause it allows Eles to spam secondary skills.

Tyla · Apr 22, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I have a couple of Solo Farm areas with a R/W Axe aswell, it's no "gimmick" it's what gets the job done. I've been useing a sword alot more than Axe as of late.

Gimmicks can get the job done too.
Sways are still going and getting people fame, because all THEY care about is a flashy emote.

@Caged Instanity -- Original, maybe, but you're still throwing away the decent potential that a Ranger can have. No, not only BHA *insert commonly used build*.
Maybe not a gimmick though. If not, maybe my definition was a little off.

Nuclfus · Apr 22, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

The ranger is way overpowered, and not just because of expertise. No, I'm not sick of them beating me at my own game - I'm sick of being able to throw a random mix of bow attacks/block stances/pet skills onto my bar and have no trouble fighting in AB. With Expertise I never run out of energy, and can sit on my ass while I block things or run like hell indefinitely from the melee classes who can only barely keep up, which still says nothing about actually catching me. Being caught off-guard with 0 energy (if that ever happens) is a joke, since I have to wait for maybe 2 seconds before I can fight back or hit a running stance.

That's my 2 cents. While I think nerfing Expertise might actually make the class more fun, I'm sure most people disagree with me so I suppose it's only fair to leave it as it is.

StormDragonZ · Apr 22, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

No, there is nothing wrong with Expertise.

I agree. Expertise is fine, and anyone who has a problem with that needs to see that if that got balanced, Necromancer Soul Reaping would need to be balanced... Elementalist Energy Storage would have to be balanced, and the flow of destruction will continue.

NecroticChanter · Apr 22, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Suggestion: Buff expertise as in make it more powerful and them limit it to only ranger skills.